[quote author=“RayaniFoxmur”][quote author=“minijigga”]If you wanted to feed your kids, you got up at 5 am. to catch the train to wherever you worked, if you were fortunate enough to have public transportation to wherever it was you worked. You didn’t have MORE kids to collect MORE money. Churches provided much of the support needed when families fell on hard times, now lines serve the masses who’ve chosen to sit in the laps of others during their “hard times”.

A. I’m begining to get sick of these topics knock it the hell off.

B. That’s wonderful if you live in an area with public transportation and if you’re Christian.  Unfortunately I have neither of these things going for me.  And I do hope you realize that the living on Welfare and having more babies is as much of a stereotype as black people are all in gangs (I don’t really believe that so shut up. 😛)

A. Well that’s too bad. Unless you can get one of the board mods to stop letting me express my opinions, as you so eloquently express yours, then you’ll just have to stop reading my words or just do as you have been doing.

B. I don’t. I live twenty minutes from Tucson, and in Tucson they don’t have public transportation even comparable to where I’m from (Oregon) originally. I’m not Christian, I was forced into Catholicism, but I’ve been in a dispute with God for the past 7 years… I was using that as an example for why Socialism in America cannot work, I’m actually one of the least racist people you might ever meet.

[quote author=“Bootes”]This country was also started for freedom.  Freedom of religion, seperation of church and state, and what we finally figured out it doesn’t matter if you’re black/white/women, man, ect.  Yet we have a president that doesn’t think gay people should be allowed to marry.  A senator in North (maybe South Carolina) who has said women that are not married and gay people should not be allowed to teach in our schools.  A government funding some schools using text books that say things such as India has not has not done anything of importance since they have not accepted Jesus Christ.  And when the largest teachers union tells this to the head of the Education department, they are called terrorists.

This paragraph is quite confusing, but I think I got what you meant.

I don’t think the government has any right to take away the happiness of it’s citizens as long as no one’s rights are being infringed on. In the case of Gay Marriage, I don’t have any problem with it. Don’t worry Andruex and (oh I forgot his name, don’t come here that often anymore), you’ll one day have the rights as us “normal” folk :D I think what the states have done, in banning Gay marriage (basically), is just flat out wrong. I mean, I can only imagine how bad the Gays of the US must feel. Here they are, unaccepted by most of society most of their “out” lives, and then they get a big punch in the gut again… it’s just friggin’ mean spirited I think. At least the president is for giving them the benefits, if not the name and title, at least they’ll have the tax break.

It’s been my experience, and mine alone is the only one I can comment on, that the separation of Church and State is working. I’ve not seen anything that would indicate a merger; however, I don’t live and have never lived in an area that is highly populated with one religious faction. So, I really cannot comment on what you were saying.

[quote author=“sweet jesus”]I will be leaving this country when I’m finished with school Mini. I still have to get a teaching and grad degree though. Them I’m the **** out.

And I figured as much. I know you love the idea of Socialism, as do I, at heart. You know the feeling you get when you join together and get something accomplished? Like, in school I was apart of a program called, “Peer-Helpers”, a group chosen by the majority to act as facilitators to troubled students. We always had things going on, and I loved the feeling of being apart of a team with common goal. It’s the same as in sports, only without that elitist feeling that can sometimes accompany certain individuals.

Here’s my own personal idea:

I will make as much money as possible, and then purchase an island. On that island, a hundred or so of the friends I’ve made along my life will reside with me, and we’ll all have our own tasks to complete daily. I think that’d be great, but if some people didn’t like it, they’d be able to leave at any time… dunno, that’s been my dream for quite some time. I hate money and taxes and people telling me what I’m supposed to be or what I’m supposed to do with my life. I’d liken the feeling of this, my personal Utopia, with how conscious a baby is of the rest of the world. With the absence of all that societal pressure, my head would spin 😛 But, I’d have to have high speed internet, that’s my only reservation 😛

[quote author=“Bootes”]Ya running off to countries that posed no threat to us based, instead of going to country’s such as North Korea which has openly admitted to working on nuclear weapons has really protected our country.

And Kerry wanted to get terrorists also, he just wanted to get help from the rest of the world first.  That way we don’t need as many supply’s and troops, and won’t lose as many people.

Hey, do me a favor and go find me some conclusive proof that says Iraq never had weapons of mass destruction. Go look at the recent reports about how the Russian’s helped get weapons out of Iraq and into Syria. Go read some of the statements Iraq government officials made in regards to the international community. There is as much evidence that concludes he had weapons, as there is to say he didn’t.

Terrorists aren’t American citizens, and as they aren’t, they sure as #### don’t deserve our “innocent until proven guilty” policy.

Help from the rest of the world? The rest of the world like France and Germany? Governments with leaders who had been using the Oil for Food program as their own personal piggy bank? Hmm, that doesn’t sound like the kind of help we should be inquiring about. And that’s just who Kerry would have gone and kissed ass to first, so no, I don’t think he would have been the good choice there.

[quote author=“mallory”]cool. i’m glad you believe in a utopian, libertarian society. I’d agree with you if human nature were perfect.

but hey, back before FDR, we had people dying and starving and defecating in the streets. unless you happened to be white, male, and protestant.

the democracy that we have evolved into makes small corrections for imperfections in a big society. if you don’t like it, -you- should move.

i believe in the separation of church and state. and hey, our founding fathers did too.

in conclusion, shut the f—- up and move to the middle of africa if you don’t believe in having a government that helps its people. in the meantime, we’ll participate in our government and voice our opinions as much as we want to.

Where did I say I wanted a government resembling that of Africa’s? If you’d actually read all that I wrote, I said I wanted more personal intervention than the handouts we’re giving now. If you think giving someone a check every month is the right solution to the problem, then why isn’t it working? Why are there still homeless people if your small corrections are working for the vast majority?

Where’d I say I was even Christian, and in saying such would suggest that I believed in the merging of our state and some religiously oriented belief?

Wowsers.

[quote author=“mallory”]no, haha, that was directed toward minijigga.

for the record, i’m a moderate democrat. my worries aren’t as much with iraq/foreign policy, and I’m not that concerned about republican economic policy (to some degree, I can understand it, although I do strongly disagree)—what I can’t f—-ing stand is the integration of religion and government (regarding reproductive rights, not just limited to abortion but also extending to healthcare, confidentiality, and contraception; gay marriage, stem cell research), and the reactionary right. we have extremist republicans running the country. that sucks. and white supremecist, christian supremacist, homophobic, misogynistic and extremely nationalistic assholes like the guy that started this thread suck. and even blindly radical liberals suck.

in conclusion, look at the ******** that i found in the newspaper today.

Have you ever considered the fact that maybe I don’t disagree with Abortion? I don’t quite agree with it, but I also am not flat out against it. Even though my parents preach to me (not really, we aren’t that religious) the wrongs of it. They don’t have friends getting pregnancy scares. They say I’ll understand one day when I have kids of my own, I guess they could be right there, but I won’t know ‘til I have a kid of my own.

I think the real problem is with education. We need to teach our kids about the proper uses of contraceptives, and the “wrongness” of sex needs to be done away with. We have to face facts, kids are having sex at earlier and earlier ages. STD’s are being past at alarming rates, and in my state, Arizona, Teen Pregnancy is at a national high (If I’m correct). We NEED to talk to our youth, and this whole blind eye that’s being turned to more sexual education is flat out dangerous.

If you educate more kids, less kids will become pregnant. Parents need to tell their children that sex can be a beautiful thing, and not something so dark and disgusting as other’s would have them believe. If they think it’s a bad thing, and then end up giving into their biological urges, they’re not going to tell anyone that can help them before their time has run out.

That’s dangerous.

Ms. or Mrs. Mallory, I’m truly sorry for being nationalistic, if that sorrowfully offends you :( If having pride in my country offends you, I would invite you to look at this one finger I’m so blatantly waving at you…

[quote author=“Compfreak”]yea Bush won but its only cause the democrat wasnt able to convey their message well enough, Kerry talks tooo much

Able to convey his message, that could be right, because I can’t for the life of me recall what it could have been. Unless it was, “Anybody but Bush!”

[quote author=“Compfreak”]i dont think so, cuase Bush had theses commericals that were like 30 secs so people got to hear it over and over again, Kerry talks for too long, that makes people lose interest and its less likely they will remember it cause they will listen to it less.

Yes, sheep, follow the shepard to the wolves… Gimme a break. If you’re as smart as the next person, you’ll just flip the channel…

[quote author=“SpiceLMF”][quote author=“mallory”][quote author=“twhite56”]Ok good, didn’t think it was directed at me. I agree to some extent about seperation of church and state, however, Kerry’s flip flops on issues to please the voters drive me crazy.

i congratulate the bush administration for creating such an effective propaganda campaign…

bush flip flops versus kerry flip flops

how about that big afghanistan versus iraq flip flop. hehh…

thank you..

http://www.factcheck.org
learn about the fallacies of both campaigns.

and yes considering that there was a 3% difference between the candidates, campaigns and the way they are run greatly effected this election.  The G.O.P is fantastic at understanding what the people want to hear and coaxing people into believing that they’ll do a better job.  A big problem with the Democrats is they fail to master certain techniques of propaganda and have a hard time aggressively attacking the opposition and yeilding support from the people.

Already? Already trying to make up excuses for why your party lost… Well, it was to be expected. Sore losers four years ago, nothing has changed.

MASTERED THE TECHNIQUES OF PROPAGANDA? Give me a fuckin’ break. For nearly two god damn years you people have been pounding away at Bush, throughout the whole Democratic convention, that’s all that was talked about. You had more than enough time to convey your message, and all it rendered you was a loss. A loss in the executive branch, and losses in the legislative branch. All your scare tactic ads from moveon.org and even a <100 mil. motion picture couldn’t get you more than a 4 point loss?

Nope, I think it was your message that lost it for you. You were running to replace someone rather than elect someone, which is where I harken back to saying that you should have chosen somebody else. Someone who could have ran for themselves, instead of against a popular incumbent.

I think it’s funny, you’ve been calling Bush and the Republican party a bunch of dumb fuckin’ hicks for so long, but now you’re saying they’re masters of mass deception? Did they fool you into thinking they were dumb only to try and fool everyone else into believing they’re the good guys? I’m whole heartedly confused.

Stick to one thing. Either we’re dumb, or we’re masters of politics… choose. IT CANNOT go both ways.

[quote author=“oldfashionedhussy”]I know many of us(including myself) have thought about skipping town after Wednesday, and I’ll admit I was only half-joking that I’d leave.  But after carefully thinking and reading advice from several blogs (and of course, being the optimist & stubborn scorpio that I am), I realized that we do need to stay and continue fight it.  Write your ass off and send letters to representatives on certain issues and get other people involved.  I loved seeing those protests here during the RNC in August/September.  Show all those f*ckers what we really think.  Show it in masses.

We were in the minority on election day but there were what, about 77 million eligible people that didn’t vote?  Perhaps it was laziness that didn’t get them out there, or maybe it was because they were just not convinced and were scared to vote for the wrong person… so they didn’t at all.

[I voted for Kerry on Tuesday, but to be honest with you, he didn’t really jump out at me.  I wasn’t amped about having him be president.  Not that I’m thrilled about Bush (I HATE that man), but I can understand if there really were just people that didn’t want to vote due to apathy towards both candidates.  I didn’t really care for either one, but Kerry’s stance on certain issues was the best match for me.] 

So stay, get involved, spread the word, and get things done… HERE.  Changes obviously need to be made and we need to make sure that they do.  Of course “OMg BuSh SuX & yEr a TaRd foR vOtInG 4 hiM!!1!1!ONE” won’t get any results.  So err… choose a some other method.  But STAY.  They country needs us more than ever.  And why will the other people really listen to us if they see us wanting to flee when we think sh*t’s gonna go bad? 

[quote author=“sweet jesus”]

and that was just hilarious :lol:

That would be great. If you can convince enough of America that your ideals are for the better good, then by all means, go ahead and try. America is good, but it can be alot better than it is. I’ll tell you though, protesting doesn’t really do much for the average couch potato.. they only see you as fanatical. The only people you’ll embolden are your like-minded constituents. Go ahead though, go protest and ruin some poor dudes car while you’re at it 😛 Then break some plate glass windows, steal some stuff, and say it’s ‘cause you’re angry and America deserves this showing because you’re upset.

Don’t protest. Sit down and think about who you truly are. Come to a decision that you think is correct, after throwing out all your political rhetoric, and then ask yourself why most of America doesn’t think like you do? Perhaps they might agree with you, but because you were too busy bashing Bush, they didn’t get a chance to hear what you truly thought.

Then, in four years, how about you actually talk about what you want to do, instead of bashing your opponent.

Both sides bashed each other, but who won? Who had more ammunition? Who had more time to expend their ammunition? Who chose the wrong weapon?

You had everything going for you. An economy that wasn’t perfect, a war that wasn’t perfect, and an incumbent who lost every debate (not according to me)... yet, you lost. Again. It’s not so much us, as it is you. You’re focusing all your energy on the wrong things, and that’s why you lost. You lost because you chose the wrong guy, who promoted the wrong message to get himself elected, and he didn’t make his clearly lay out why he was better than Bush—he only said he was better. When in fact, he would have done everything just about exactly the same as Bush has and will. You moved far Left, while Republicans moved into the center… You made your choices, and you lost.

Sorry, had to say that last part, because for so long I’ve heard the same attacks, and it just feels so good to come out on top after all of the ######## that’s gone on… Feels good to know that the majority of the people agree with you, even if the majority of the media does not.

Hey, do me a favor and go find me some conclusive proof that says Iraq never had weapons of mass destruction. Go look at the recent reports about how the Russian’s helped get weapons out of Iraq and into Syria. Go read some of the statements Iraq government officials made in regards to the international community. There is as much evidence that concludes he had weapons, as there is to say he didn’t.

Terrorists aren’t American citizens, and as they aren’t, they sure as **** don’t deserve our “innocent until proven guilty” policy.

Help from the rest of the world? The rest of the world like France and Germany? Governments with leaders who had been using the Oil for Food program as their own personal piggy bank? Hmm, that doesn’t sound like the kind of help we should be inquiring about. And that’s just who Kerry would have gone and kissed ass to first, so no, I don’t think he would have been the good choice there.

Precisely…

I just found this on Slate. They have a really good article with links to various Canadian immigration sites just in case you need the info. They also posted this picture that was in the Toronto Star about what some democrats are wishing would happen:

Just in case you’re wondering, I don’t want to move from the US just because of politics. I’m not a huge fan of American culture either.  The massive onslaughts on individuality are personally insulting to me.  I’d like to travel and get a better perspective of what’s really important and maybe find a place where I fit in.

F*ck this—this is to help out all my fellow American liberals. It’s a real site, and maybe some of you will take advantage of it:

http://www.marryanamerican.ca/

I think all us Liberals have to look forward too are the ‘08 elections.

[quote author=“snakeyes17”][quote author=“Andreux”]

:( The Brits are making fun of us. That’s the cover a *very* popular magazine in England, by the way. I wouldn’t call them a socialist nation, per se, but they’re European, and I thought this picture would fit in well with this topic, I guess… I dunno.. LOL

EDIT (one minute later): Oh, and here’s the source: http://www.mirror.co.uk/frontpages/

If I was living there and had a magazine I would do the same thing.

Uhhh, the Brits don’t even have a right to make fun of us. Did they elect Prince Charles? Oops, no, he inherited it from his great great great great great great great grandmother.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
Already? Already trying to make up excuses for why your party lost… Well, it was to be expected. Sore losers four years ago, nothing has changed.

MASTERED THE TECHNIQUES OF PROPAGANDA? Give me a ****’ break. For nearly two god damn years you people have been pounding away at Bush, throughout the whole Democratic convention, that’s all that was talked about. You had more than enough time to convey your message, and all it rendered you was a loss. A loss in the executive branch, and losses in the legislative branch. All your scare tactic ads from moveon.org and even a <100 mil. motion picture couldn’t get you more than a 4 point loss?

Nope, I think it was your message that lost it for you. You were running to replace someone rather than elect someone, which is where I harken back to saying that you should have chosen somebody else. Someone who could have ran for themselves, instead of against a popular incumbent.

I think it’s funny, you’ve been calling Bush and the Republican party a bunch of dumb ****’ hicks for so long, but now you’re saying they’re masters of mass deception? Did they fool you into thinking they were dumb only to try and fool everyone else into believing they’re the good guys? I’m whole heartedly confused.

Stick to one thing. Either we’re dumb, or we’re masters of politics… choose. IT CANNOT go both ways.

holy #### you’re being insane… I don’t even want to reply to this because it’s just stupid.  Maybe you should take AP Government and you’d understand what I was talking about.. we learned all about propaganda technique used all the time by candidates…  I know propaganda is a dirty word in a lot of ways.  But even the slightest things are propaganda.. for example one technique is called Plainclothes.. in this technique you see political figures getting down with the people… ex: a candidate taking off their tie and rolling up their sleeves… making them look more like a regular man’s man.  Both parties used these techniques to mislead voters, including the scare techniques which you accuse the Democrats of.. yet I promise you.. the Republicans are also guilty of (They actually had an ad showing a pack of hungry looking wolves to symbolize terrorists claiming John Kerry would allow this threat in).. I don’t think it’s all about message.. of course a huge part of it is.. but especially when it comes to undecideds campaigns definitely can sway their decision.. and I’m not making excuses.. because hey some people just don’t agree with certain issues.. gay marriage, abortion etc etc.  Yet seeing as Kerry received more votes than Reagan did in 1984.. and the margin was a slim 3%.. I would say that the way the campaign’s were run was a big deciding factor whether you’d like to think so or not.  Although you seem to be using the term message as a piece of their campaign.. aka their campaign message aka how they presented themselves.. (which I’m agreeing they didn’t do a good job with) rather than saying that their actual ideology on how this country should be run is the problem.

And no I don’t think all of the Republican’s are complete idiots… I think that many people are dumb for believing everything that was said.  And believe me I’m not saying that the Democrats didn’t put forth their own ########.. but even with me knowing the truth behind both candidates claims Kerry still came out the better candidate in my opinion.  Unfortunately not everyone saw the full picture.. and I’m not saying that this loss was completely because of a mismanaged campaign, I know many people just didn’t agree with what Kerry stood for.. and on the same end many people didn’t agree what Bush stands for…

To suggest that the way campaigns were run didn’t effect the outcome is just plain stupid.. Can’t you see I’m applauding the Republicans for doing a good job on their campaign.. if only the Democrats could get it together like that. 

Whatever, I shouldn’t even respond anymore.. I’m extremely tired and probably not totally coherent right now.  I don’t even get why you’re so pissed off… we can bitch all we want but your man is in office.. you won.. just let us wallow for a little.

PS.  I just read your entire post.. I fail to see why you would support Republicans.. would you mind telling me what exactly you agree with them on.  From what I can tell you a more intensive social programs (helping people and such..) which seems to go against the whole conservative idealism… (not that conservatives are against helping people but tend to think that the government should be less involved) but maybe I’m misunderstanding your position.  You don’t disprove of gay marriage and say that you’re not for abortion but you’re not extremely against it.  You say you want what’s referred to as Abstinence Plus programs.. which is actually what Kerry was for.. whereas the Bush Administration put millions into sexual health programs which discussed only abstinence and didn’t teach about other protection at all.  It seems that the only thing you really agree with is the war in Iraq… which is a sort of after the fact issue.. like neither Bush nor Kerry planned to pull out of Iraq till the job is done.. sooo..  I don’t know I just don’t understand how your ideology matches with the Republicans… but maybe I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying or missing a piece of the puzzle.

[quote author=“Esquire7T”][quote author=“snakeyes17”][quote author=“Andreux”]

:( The Brits are making fun of us. That’s the cover a *very* popular magazine in England, by the way. I wouldn’t call them a socialist nation, per se, but they’re European, and I thought this picture would fit in well with this topic, I guess… I dunno.. LOL

EDIT (one minute later): Oh, and here’s the source: http://www.mirror.co.uk/frontpages/

If I was living there and had a magazine I would do the same thing.

Uhhh, the Brits don’t even have a right to make fun of us. Did they elect Prince Charles? Oops, no, he inherited it from his great great great great great great great grandmother.

and what are you talking about?.. the prince holds very little power if at all any.. the royal family is merely figureheads.  The Parliament and Prime Minister run their country.. and they’re elected.

[quote author=“SpiceLMF”][quote author=“minijigga”]
Already? Already trying to make up excuses for why your party lost… Well, it was to be expected. Sore losers four years ago, nothing has changed.

MASTERED THE TECHNIQUES OF PROPAGANDA? Give me a ****’ break. For nearly two god damn years you people have been pounding away at Bush, throughout the whole Democratic convention, that’s all that was talked about. You had more than enough time to convey your message, and all it rendered you was a loss. A loss in the executive branch, and losses in the legislative branch. All your scare tactic ads from moveon.org and even a <100 mil. motion picture couldn’t get you more than a 4 point loss?

Nope, I think it was your message that lost it for you. You were running to replace someone rather than elect someone, which is where I harken back to saying that you should have chosen somebody else. Someone who could have ran for themselves, instead of against a popular incumbent.

I think it’s funny, you’ve been calling Bush and the Republican party a bunch of dumb ****’ hicks for so long, but now you’re saying they’re masters of mass deception? Did they fool you into thinking they were dumb only to try and fool everyone else into believing they’re the good guys? I’m whole heartedly confused.

Stick to one thing. Either we’re dumb, or we’re masters of politics… choose. IT CANNOT go both ways.

holy **** you’re being insane… I don’t even want to reply to this because it’s just stupid.  Maybe you should take AP Government and you’d understand what I was talking about.. we learned all about propaganda technique used all the time by candidates…  I know propaganda is a dirty word in a lot of ways.  But even the slightest things are propaganda.. for example one technique is called Plainclothes.. in this technique you see political figures getting down with the people… ex: a candidate taking off their tie and rolling up their sleeves… making them look more like a regular man’s man.  Both parties used these techniques to mislead voters, including the scare techniques which you accuse the Democrats of.. yet I promise you.. the Republicans are also guilty of (They actually had an ad showing a pack of hungry looking wolves to symbolize terrorists claiming John Kerry would allow this threat in).. I don’t think it’s all about message.. of course a huge part of it is.. but especially when it comes to undecideds campaigns definitely can sway their decision.. and I’m not making excuses.. because hey some people just don’t agree with certain issues.. gay marriage, abortion etc etc.  Yet seeing as Kerry received more votes than Reagan did in 1984.. and the margin was a slim 3%.. I would say that the way the campaign’s were run was a big deciding factor whether you’d like to think so or not.  Although you seem to be using the term message as a piece of their campaign.. aka their campaign message aka how they presented themselves.. (which I’m agreeing they didn’t do a good job with) rather than saying that their actual ideology on how this country should be run is the problem.

And no I don’t think all of the Republican’s are complete idiots… I think that many people are dumb for believing everything that was said.  And believe me I’m not saying that the Democrats didn’t put forth their own ********.. but even with me knowing the truth behind both candidates claims Kerry still came out the better candidate in my opinion.  Unfortunately not everyone saw the full picture.. and I’m not saying that this loss was completely because of a mismanaged campaign, I know many people just didn’t agree with what Kerry stood for.. and on the same end many people didn’t agree what Bush stands for…

To suggest that the way campaigns were run didn’t effect the outcome is just plain stupid.. Can’t you see I’m applauding the Republicans for doing a good job on their campaign.. if only the Democrats could get it together like that. 

Whatever, I shouldn’t even respond anymore.. I’m extremely tired and probably not totally coherent right now.  I don’t even get why you’re so pissed off… we can bitch all we want but your man is in office.. you won.. just let us wallow for a little.

PS.  I just read your entire post.. I fail to see why you would support Republicans.. would you mind telling me what exactly you agree with them on.  From what I can tell you a more intensive social programs (helping people and such..) which seems to go against the whole conservative idealism… (not that conservatives are against helping people but tend to think that the government should be less involved) but maybe I’m misunderstanding your position.  You don’t disprove of gay marriage and say that you’re not for abortion but you’re not extremely against it.  You say you want what’s referred to as Abstinence Plus programs.. which is actually what Kerry was for.. whereas the Bush Administration put millions into sexual health programs which discussed only abstinence and didn’t teach about other protection at all.  It seems that the only thing you really agree with is the war in Iraq… which is a sort of after the fact issue.. like neither Bush nor Kerry planned to pull out of Iraq till the job is done.. sooo..  I don’t know I just don’t understand how your ideology matches with the Republicans… but maybe I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying or missing a piece of the puzzle.

I guess you’re right, I did see propaganda as too ugly a word to use. Whenever it’s used, I think back to when Hitler used images of rats chewing on cheese to symbolize the entire Jewish race.

I guess I also disagreed, because I believe that Kerry would have put the country at risk, at least more-so than Bush would (or has).

I remember during the Democratic Primaries, I heard Kerry say, “If you liked the Clinton Administration, You’ll love John Kerry’s America…” (or something). That right there, totally ended it for me. He looked so dry and boring, that and he was praising a man I find at fault for 9/11. I don’t fault him entirely, but Clinton could have done something to hasten Osama’s ambition…

When it comes down to it, I just feel that John Kerry wasn’t being honest with me. He struck me as too “Washington”, fit too well with the Politician stereotype.

I feel that when Bush is talking, he’s telling the truth. I know I’m gonna’ catch heat for saying that, but that’s just how I feel. He’s wholesome, and the fact that he isn’t the best speaker, makes me believe his motivations for being in Office are decent ones. That’s just me though 😛 I know you all see it differently.

Another reason I’m a Republican is that I live in a Republican household, where I’ve been told so many things from my very Conservative father, so I tend to regurgitate some of his stuff sometimes.

I see the President as somewhat like my father, and I see how stubborn old people are when it comes to holding onto tradition. I don’t feel that those issues are ones they are required to move on, I see that as something my generation, or subsequent generations will be responsible for.

When it came right down to it, I just didn’t think that Kerry was telling me the truth about what he truly thought. I cannot feel safe with someone if they don’t have my trust, and since the President already had that, I’m not going to risk my safety on some guy who can’t make up his mind on where he stands on the issues.

And I think that’s where the average American voter was left, at least > 60 million people were left there :|

I may not know exactly where I stand on certain issues, mainly due to the lack of a proper education on the topic, but I’m only 19. Who knows, in the next election, I might vote for Hillary 😛 ‘Cause you know she’s runnin’ 😛

Hey, I may not have taken AP Government, but I’m pretty smart for a HS drop-out with only 8 HS credits 😢

[quote author=“sweet jesus”]I just found this on Slate. They have a really good article with links to various Canadian immigration sites just in case you need the info. They also posted this picture that was in the Toronto Star about what some democrats are wishing would happen:

Just in case you’re wondering, I don’t want to move from the US just because of politics. I’m not a huge fan of American culture either.  The massive onslaughts on individuality are personally insulting to me.  I’d like to travel and get a better perspective of what’s really important and maybe find a place where I fit in.

I know what you mean, thank god I was attacked by my “friends” during middle school, otherwise I may not have any creativity left in me at all. That’s all school is, a place to learn how-to color in between the lines they draw.

Unfortunately, whenever you allow kids to where what they want, it becomes a social competition pitting the poor against the rich. It’s disgusting. You don’t want to strangle the original thoughts out of their minds, but you can’t let bullying continue. Jocks being held up to their entire peer body as champions of the world, while the educated chess player might get 20 or so people to come cheer for him. Where is the equality? I thought we were supposed to be in school to be educated, and if so, where do athletics play an actual role facilitating that function? They don’t :( I don’t think that’ll ever change though :(

Where did I say I wanted a government resembling that of Africa’s?

in those “glorious days” you were ranting about, our poverty rates were as bad as most places in Africa, because we had very little government intervention and programs for the poor. we had a HUGE economic/social gap between the rich and the poor. now we have a huge middle class. we have it about as perfect as it’s going to get.

If you’d actually read all that I wrote,

I read what you wrote, thanks.

I said I wanted more personal intervention than the handouts we’re giving now. If you think giving someone a check every month is the right solution to the problem, then why isn’t it working?

I don’t think it is the right solution. I never said it was.

Why are there still homeless people

the people in this country are homeless because they choose to be homeless (or because they’re schizophrenic and they live in California where Reagan closed the insane asylums). we have shelters and soup kitchens for the homeless, and we have many government jobs and programs to help people get into a stable financial state. again, I would direct you to the example of the poverty in the majority of places in Africa versus the poverty here. no government intervention, mostly because of a collapsed, unstable economy.

vast majority

less than 1% of the population of the US experiences homelessness at some point in any given year. long term homelessness would probably be about 1/50th of that. during the turn of the century, a good half of the population of new york was working extremely hazardous jobs for about $0.05 an hour and living in one-room apartments of 10-20 people. but at least the government wasn’t getting in anyone’s business.

Where’d I say I was even Christian, and in saying such would suggest that I believed in the merging of our state and some religiously oriented belief?

I believe you said something about it in your initial post, but I could go back and check if you’d like.

Have you ever considered the fact that maybe I don’t disagree with Abortion? I don’t quite agree with it, but I also am not flat out against it. Even though my parents preach to me (not really, we aren’t that religious) the wrongs of it. They don’t have friends getting pregnancy scares. They say I’ll understand one day when I have kids of my own, I guess they could be right there, but I won’t know ‘til I have a kid of my own.

I think the real problem is with education. We need to teach our kids about the proper uses of contraceptives, and the “wrongness” of sex needs to be done away with. We have to face facts, kids are having sex at earlier and earlier ages. STD’s are being past at alarming rates, and in my state, Arizona, Teen Pregnancy is at a national high (If I’m correct). We NEED to talk to our youth, and this whole blind eye that’s being turned to more sexual education is flat out dangerous.

If you educate more kids, less kids will become pregnant. Parents need to tell their children that sex can be a beautiful thing, and not something so dark and disgusting as other’s would have them believe. If they think it’s a bad thing, and then end up giving into their biological urges, they’re not going to tell anyone that can help them before their time has run out.

That’s dangerous.

i totally agree with you.

Ms. or Mrs. Mallory,

ms.

I’m truly sorry for being nationalistic, if that sorrowfully offends you :( If having pride in my country offends you, I would invite you to look at this one finger I’m so blatantly waving at you…

extreme nationalism is a very dangerous thing. it’s pretty silly, because you don’t have anything to do with your country, or how it’s run. you just happened to be pushed out of your mother’s vagina on soil claimed by a specific government. it was completely arbitrary. it’s like having pride in the sky being blue. the sky could be hot pink, and you’d still have pride in it being hot pink. why?

it’s the same mentality that started almost every war this world has endured.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
I guess you’re right, I did see propaganda as too ugly a word to use. Whenever it’s used, I think back to when Hitler used images of rats chewing on cheese to symbolize the entire Jewish race.

I hope you see what I was saying now.  People think that just because Hitler used it that means that candidates in the US don’t.  It’s just to what extreme and to achieve what goal that makes it different.  I really wish everyone knew the I believe 7 or so propaganda techniques used because i’ll tell you it definately helped me to see through a lot of crap that the candidates said.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
I guess I also disagreed, because I believe that Kerry would have put the country at risk, at least more-so than Bush would (or has).

I remember during the Democratic Primaries, I heard Kerry say, “If you liked the Clinton Administration, You’ll love John Kerry’s America…” (or something). That right there, totally ended it for me. He looked so dry and boring, that and he was praising a man I find at fault for 9/11. I don’t fault him entirely, but Clinton could have done something to hasten Osama’s ambition…

When it comes down to it, I just feel that John Kerry wasn’t being honest with me. He struck me as too “Washington”, fit too well with the Politician stereotype.

I feel that when Bush is talking, he’s telling the truth. I know I’m gonna’ catch heat for saying that, but that’s just how I feel. He’s wholesome, and the fact that he isn’t the best speaker, makes me believe his motivations for being in Office are decent ones. That’s just me though 😛 I know you all see it differently.

So basically because Bush is a better actor, you support him.  I don’t mean to bash on you but this is what I was initially talking about when i said “The G.O.P is fantastic at understanding what the people want to hear and coaxing people into believing that they’ll do a better job.”  And you just proved that statement true.  The problem is that this administration misled it’s people many many times.. including into the Iraq war.. but because they’re better at acting like they didn’t do anything wrong, many people believe they’re doing good things in the War on Terror. 

[quote author=“minijigga”]
Another reason I’m a Republican is that I live in a Republican household, where I’ve been told so many things from my very Conservative father, so I tend to regurgitate some of his stuff sometimes.

I see the President as somewhat like my father, and I see how stubborn old people are when it comes to holding onto tradition. I don’t feel that those issues are ones they are required to move on, I see that as something my generation, or subsequent generations will be responsible for.

So because your parents tell you stuff, you take that as the truth.  My dad is ultra conservative and we constantly have debates.  The thing is that while he’s extremely news informed he doesn’t go the extra mile to actually find out what’s just not true.  There’s many times where we’ll be debating and he’ll say something that’s just completely the force fed propaganda response aka “Kerry’s a flip flopper,” “He’s the most Liberal Senator”.. etc etc.  I just wish that people instead of listening to everything that’s said and taking it as the truth actually look into it and find what’s the truth and what’s a fallicy… I’ve promoted this website constantly.. but it’s great.. non-partisan (which is truly my favorite word to see) http://www.factcheck.org.  Hey even Cheney promoted it (although he said factcheck.com which is an anti-bush site.. and factcheck.org actually exposes a lot of his crap too.. so i dont know how good a move it was for him haha).

And on holding onto tradition and it not being this generations job but rather when we begin to run this country.. that just doesn’t make sense.  If something needs to be changed, then we have to start the changes.  This is our time too… I’m 18 which means I’m a voting citizen so I have a responsibilty to this country to make it a better place.  Do you really think that we can only start when we begin to rule?  Change isn’t an instantaneous thing.. it’s a process.  What would have happened to the Black community if abolishionist movements didnt begin in the early 1800’s?.. Would emancipation have come in the 1860’s?  It is our job as the younger generation to introduce change.. no matter if the older generation wants to hold on to what they believe… hopefully the older generation will support our views.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
When it came right down to it, I just didn’t think that Kerry was telling me the truth about what he truly thought. I cannot feel safe with someone if they don’t have my trust, and since the President already had that, I’m not going to risk my safety on some guy who can’t make up his mind on where he stands on the issues.

And I think that’s where the average American voter was left, at least > 60 million people were left there :|

I may not know exactly where I stand on certain issues, mainly due to the lack of a proper education on the topic, but I’m only 19. Who knows, in the next election, I might vote for Hillary 😛 ‘Cause you know she’s runnin’ 😛

Hey, I may not have taken AP Government, but I’m pretty smart for a HS drop-out with only 8 HS credits 😢

Well that’s what it all comes to isn’t it.. not who can better run our country but who can appear to run our country better.  I’m really not trying to put you down here.. you do seemed to be informed on certain issues.. but please I urge everyone to not take everything for face value.  And don’t get me wrong there’s probably the same amount of Kerry supporters that are misinformed… but in the end you have to weigh the issues and figure out which candidate is better for you.  Just to add a personal note, I was really proud of my sister in this election.. she’s always been a Bush supporter but lately hasn’t really been liking what he’s been doing.  So we were talking about all the issues at hand.. and she actually agreed with Kerry’s stance.. in the end she voted for Kerry even though she liked Bush’s personality.  She voted on issues and I think that’s a really great thing.

[quote author=“mallory”]

Where did I say I wanted a government resembling that of Africa’s?

in those “glorious days” you were ranting about, our poverty rates were as bad as most places in Africa, because we had very little government intervention and programs for the poor. we had a HUGE economic/social gap between the rich and the poor. now we have a huge middle class. we have it about as perfect as it’s going to get.

If you’d actually read all that I wrote,

I read what you wrote, thanks.

Well, I’m not sure you understood me.

I was pointing out the good things of that era, not necessarily saying that the time period was the best in our nations history. Independence from the government was something that we’re totally lacking in our society today, and I’m sure if you compare both you’ll find that being independent is better than being dependent.

You spoke of the huge gap between the monetary classes, and you’re completely correct. But, why is it that we need only one class? Why is there no room for people to be rewarded for achieving great things? Why must the playing field be leveled out completely? Why must you take away the incentive to reach for the sky? I know you didn’t say it, but you certainly were making the base argument for what the future “should” hold for us.

Why are there still homeless people

the people in this country are homeless because they choose to be homeless (or because they’re schizophrenic and they live in California where Reagan closed the insane asylums). we have shelters and soup kitchens for the homeless, and we have many government jobs and programs to help people get into a stable financial state. again, I would direct you to the example of the poverty in the majority of places in Africa versus the poverty here. no government intervention, mostly because of a collapsed, unstable economy.

Yes, we have all those things, but are they working? Why are we so dependent upon Uncle Sam? I don’t think there is enough personal, attentive care being given to these people. In 1995, Oregon had to adjust the way they treated those who were coming in to receive Social Aid. Well, if there is negativity in the system, such as desk people with ego trips thinking their better than the people their serving, than how is it ever going to work? They, fortunately, changed their ways (I think). We need less lines and more face time with these unfortunate souls. I just don’t believe it’s working the way it was originally intended to, and I’m sure if you showed FDR some footage of the lines, he’d agree.

vast majority

less than 1% of the population of the US experiences homelessness at some point in any given year. long term homelessness would probably be about 1/50th of that. during the turn of the century, a good half of the population of new york was working extremely hazardous jobs for about $0.05 an hour and living in one-room apartments of 10-20 people. but at least the government wasn’t getting in anyone’s business.

I was saying that, if you were making your small tweaks, the system should be running fine. Shouldn’t it? If we do live in a Democracy, which we don’t, then the small changes to the larger imperfections should work for our big society? I’d like there to be a case of non-existent government reliance in this country, because whether you know it or not, we are paying for those that are job-less. We pay it in higher health care costs so that Johnny and Sally can goto the hospital, even if they can’t pay for it. There lies the big myth in this country, that if you’re poor you will be turned away. I’m sure it does happen, but I’m also pretty sure it’s against the law. The fees that are charged are ridiculously high because the hospitals are having to cover for all the poor people that cannot pay.

I don’t think this is working.

Where’d I say I was even Christian, and in saying such would suggest that I believed in the merging of our state and some religiously oriented belief?

I believe you said something about it in your initial post, but I could go back and check if you’d like.

I’m one of those, “I-only-goto-church-on-Christmas-Catholics”

I’m truly sorry for being nationalistic, if that sorrowfully offends you :( If having pride in my country offends you, I would invite you to look at this one finger I’m so blatantly waving at you…

extreme nationalism is a very dangerous thing. it’s pretty silly, because you don’t have anything to do with your country, or how it’s run. you just happened to be pushed out of your mother’s vagina on soil claimed by a specific government. it was completely arbitrary. it’s like having pride in the sky being blue. the sky could be hot pink, and you’d still have pride in it being hot pink. why?

it’s the same mentality that started almost every war this world has endured.

Sorry, I fail to agree with that statement. I am apart of my government, because I can vote. I have everything to do with my government, because I can choose who runs it. So no, I disagree.

[quote author=“SpiceLMF”][quote author=“minijigga”]
I guess I also disagreed, because I believe that Kerry would have put the country at risk, at least more-so than Bush would (or has).

I remember during the Democratic Primaries, I heard Kerry say, “If you liked the Clinton Administration, You’ll love John Kerry’s America…” (or something). That right there, totally ended it for me. He looked so dry and boring, that and he was praising a man I find at fault for 9/11. I don’t fault him entirely, but Clinton could have done something to hasten Osama’s ambition…

When it comes down to it, I just feel that John Kerry wasn’t being honest with me. He struck me as too “Washington”, fit too well with the Politician stereotype.

I feel that when Bush is talking, he’s telling the truth. I know I’m gonna’ catch heat for saying that, but that’s just how I feel. He’s wholesome, and the fact that he isn’t the best speaker, makes me believe his motivations for being in Office are decent ones. That’s just me though 😛 I know you all see it differently.

So basically because Bush is a better actor, you support him.  I don’t mean to bash on you but this is what I was initially talking about when i said “The G.O.P is fantastic at understanding what the people want to hear and coaxing people into believing that they’ll do a better job.”  And you just proved that statement true.  The problem is that this administration misled it’s people many many times.. including into the Iraq war.. but because they’re better at acting like they didn’t do anything wrong, many people believe they’re doing good things in the War on Terror.

No, see here’s where you aren’t understanding our differences. You believe he is lying to you, whereas I do not. You think he’s acting, I don’t.

Bill Clinton was the best actor of all, and I fail to see how W could even compare to him in that respect. He just doesn’t have the talent required to act any part other than his own. You’d expect, if he was acting, that he’d falter eventually. He hasn’t. Whenever he was put under pressure during the debates, he only furthered the “dumbass hick” “act”... so I’m not sure if that glass holds any water. I doubt he’d throw all three debates just to keep us his “act”.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
Another reason I’m a Republican is that I live in a Republican household, where I’ve been told so many things from my very Conservative father, so I tend to regurgitate some of his stuff sometimes.

I see the President as somewhat like my father, and I see how stubborn old people are when it comes to holding onto tradition. I don’t feel that those issues are ones they are required to move on, I see that as something my generation, or subsequent generations will be responsible for.

So because your parents tell you stuff, you take that as the truth.  My dad is ultra conservative and we constantly have debates.  The thing is that while he’s extremely news informed he doesn’t go the extra mile to actually find out what’s just not true.  There’s many times where we’ll be debating and he’ll say something that’s just completely the force fed propaganda response aka “Kerry’s a flip flopper,” “He’s the most Liberal Senator”.. etc etc.  I just wish that people instead of listening to everything that’s said and taking it as the truth actually look into it and find what’s the truth and what’s a fallicy… I’ve promoted this website constantly.. but it’s great.. non-partisan (which is truly my favorite word to see) http://www.factcheck.org.  Hey even Cheney promoted it (although he said factcheck.com which is an anti-bush site.. and factcheck.org actually exposes a lot of his crap too.. so i dont know how good a move it was for him haha).

And on holding onto tradition and it not being this generations job but rather when we begin to run this country.. that just doesn’t make sense.  If something needs to be changed, then we have to start the changes.  This is our time too… I’m 18 which means I’m a voting citizen so I have a responsibilty to this country to make it a better place.  Do you really think that we can only start when we begin to rule?  Change isn’t an instantaneous thing.. it’s a process.  What would have happened to the Black community if abolishionist movements didnt begin in the early 1800’s?.. Would emancipation have come in the 1860’s?  It is our job as the younger generation to introduce change.. no matter if the older generation wants to hold on to what they believe… hopefully the older generation will support our views.

This may sound really selfish, but it isn’t my task to complete. I’m not gay. I’m not poor (yet). I’m not really being inconvenienced at all. I mean, lower tuition costs, a reduced tax or a flat tax, and a nice new car would all be nice things… but why do I deserve them? What makes my generation worthy of those things? No one has asked me to stand with them against the governments recent injustices, so why should I? And that’s just a personal thing about me, I won’t usually help unless I feel as if I am needed. Nobody seems to need me, so I’m not going to go out of my way to fight for people that are seemingly uninterested in my being there to help.

I choose what I want to believe, and I base that off of a few things. One, I choose what I want to believe based on my inner gut, my feelings if you will. If something strikes a cord deep within me, I’m going to trust that. Two, facts can usually squash any inner feeling, but in today’s news, you can’t trust half of what you read or hear. Factcheck.org? That’s run by a college’s research department… are you sure those politically motivated youngsters have no agenda they are trying to push? How can you be sure? In many colleges throughout the country, Liberal professors who are forever pissed off about Vietnam, are pushing their agenda’s onto their students… How are you certain an agenda isn’t being pushed onto you by these people?

[quote author=“minijigga”]
When it came right down to it, I just didn’t think that Kerry was telling me the truth about what he truly thought. I cannot feel safe with someone if they don’t have my trust, and since the President already had that, I’m not going to risk my safety on some guy who can’t make up his mind on where he stands on the issues.

And I think that’s where the average American voter was left, at least > 60 million people were left there :|

I may not know exactly where I stand on certain issues, mainly due to the lack of a proper education on the topic, but I’m only 19. Who knows, in the next election, I might vote for Hillary 😛 ‘Cause you know she’s runnin’ 😛

Hey, I may not have taken AP Government, but I’m pretty smart for a HS drop-out with only 8 HS credits 😢

Well that’s what it all comes to isn’t it.. not who can better run our country but who can appear to run our country better.  I’m really not trying to put you down here.. you do seemed to be informed on certain issues.. but please I urge everyone to not take everything for face value.  And don’t get me wrong there’s probably the same amount of Kerry supporters that are misinformed… but in the end you have to weigh the issues and figure out which candidate is better for you.  Just to add a personal note, I was really proud of my sister in this election.. she’s always been a Bush supporter but lately hasn’t really been liking what he’s been doing.  So we were talking about all the issues at hand.. and she actually agreed with Kerry’s stance.. in the end she voted for Kerry even though she liked Bush’s personality.  She voted on issues and I think that’s a really great thing.

You’re basing your “facts” off of Factcheck.org, and I’m sure a few Liberal media sources as well. I base my “facts” off of talk radio (no, not Rush or Michael, but they are a good listen occasionally), Fox News (Hannity and Colmes (sp?), and The Factor), and the talks I have with my Dad. As well as the research I do here in there to find out if what I’m being told is true.

I have found that no matter where you go, everyone has a bias, and everyone has something they’d like you to agree on, with them. You cannot escape it. If a human being writes it, it will have these ingredients. I’m sorry, but your “facts” vs. my “facts” are basically the same in principal. You’ve found something that, inherently with that name, that you completely back 100%. I cannot say that, because I know the basics of “news reporting”. Whether you choose to accept the fact that they are “reporting” on a “story” or not, is up to you.

What it really comes down to is what you choose to believe, because as we all know, when you’re eyes are closed, there are infinite possibilities in this world. When we see things, we are only seeing what we want to see, and not necessarily everything out there, or even that what we’re seeing is even truly there. This is what Quantum Physics is all about. You’re choosing to believe that Bush is bad, and that he should have been replaced. Kerry might not have been the man for the job, but you chose him to fulfill the need of replacement.

You chose to see things this way because somewhere deep inside you, a cord was struck, and it just makes sense to you. From there on out, everything you heard about Bush that was negative just fell right into place with your current belief. Everything you heard that was against your belief, you sought to immediately eradicate from could be true.

I’m sure a few things came along that made you think against your belief, as a few things of that nature passed my way too. In the end, you tried to find ways around those things, because as the principals of a belief go, you cannot blindly follow something successfully if you trip on a rock. This is all true for me as well, although, some of the things that Michael Moore has introduced do still make me wonder.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
No, see here’s where you aren’t understanding our differences. You believe he is lying to you, whereas I do not. You think he’s acting, I don’t.

Bill Clinton was the best actor of all, and I fail to see how W could even compare to him in that respect. He just doesn’t have the talent required to act any part other than his own. You’d expect, if he was acting, that he’d falter eventually. He hasn’t. Whenever he was put under pressure during the debates, he only furthered the “dumbass hick” “act”... so I’m not sure if that glass holds any water. I doubt he’d throw all three debates just to keep us his “act”.

For me to suggest that Bush is an actor is not to say that all he is doing is an act.  Mosts politicians are actors as you pointed out Bill Clinton is.. but you fail to see this isn’t about Bill Clinton.. i’m talking about Bush here.  Bring Clinton up really does nothing to help your point because I’m not trying to assert that Bill Clinton is a better man.  I’m not suggesting that this “dumb hick” persona is an act… I’m saying that he is an actor in that he acts as if the failures of his administration are nothing.  He acts as if he is completely right in his ventures in the middle east where there have been many studies that suggest that we went into this war too quickly with false or not enough information.  You can go ahead and dispute that if you want, but it won’t really change the facts.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
This may sound really selfish, but it isn’t my task to complete. I’m not gay. I’m not poor (yet). I’m not really being inconvenienced at all. I mean, lower tuition costs, a reduced tax or a flat tax, and a nice new car would all be nice things… but why do I deserve them? What makes my generation worthy of those things? No one has asked me to stand with them against the governments recent injustices, so why should I? And that’s just a personal thing about me, I won’t usually help unless I feel as if I am needed. Nobody seems to need me, so I’m not going to go out of my way to fight for people that are seemingly uninterested in my being there to help.

Well yeah that does sound really selfish.. to suggest that even though there are people in our country and this world that a suffering because it doesn’t effect you, you’ll just let it happen.  And no i’m no suggesting that we all live on an equal plane.. i’m just suggesting that the people can survive.  You have this whole duality of removing dependence on the government and that you don’t really have an interest in the well being of people when it’s not directly affecting you.. but then you say you think it should be more hands on and personal.. I don’t really get what you’re saying there.. but I could be interpreting something you said wrong.  But i’m not really sure what you’re whole point in this statement.. it kind of reminds me of Iraq, because there are plenty of people who don’t want us there yet you seem to support that effort.  Granted there are people that do want us there.. but it can be argued to be similar.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
I choose what I want to believe, and I base that off of a few things. One, I choose what I want to believe based on my inner gut, my feelings if you will. If something strikes a cord deep within me, I’m going to trust that. Two, facts can usually squash any inner feeling, but in today’s news, you can’t trust half of what you read or hear. Factcheck.org? That’s run by a college’s research department… are you sure those politically motivated youngsters have no agenda they are trying to push? How can you be sure? In many colleges throughout the country, Liberal professors who are forever pissed off about Vietnam, are pushing their agenda’s onto their students… How are you certain an agenda isn’t being pushed onto you by these people?

You seem to be putting down factcheck.org for being possibly liberal.. yet if this is what you think then why would Dick Cheney promote it?  If you actually read some of the articles you’d see that they have no problem pointing out the fallicies of Kerry’s campaign equally to Bush’s.  If there is more articles geared to the fallicies of one candidate more than the other then that’s probably just because one candidate uses misleading info more than the other.  They look at voting records, unbiased studies and unravel misquotes to portray what they really mean. 

[quote author=“minijigga”]
You’re basing your “facts” off of Factcheck.org, and I’m sure a few Liberal media sources as well. I base my “facts” off of talk radio (no, not Rush or Michael, but they are a good listen occasionally), Fox News (Hannity and Colmes (sp?), and The Factor), and the talks I have with my Dad. As well as the research I do here in there to find out if what I’m being told is true.

I have found that no matter where you go, everyone has a bias, and everyone has something they’d like you to agree on, with them. You cannot escape it. If a human being writes it, it will have these ingredients. I’m sorry, but your “facts” vs. my “facts” are basically the same in principal. You’ve found something that, inherently with that name, that you completely back 100%. I cannot say that, because I know the basics of “news reporting”. Whether you choose to accept the fact that they are “reporting” on a “story” or not, is up to you.

What it really comes down to is what you choose to believe, because as we all know, when you’re eyes are closed, there are infinite possibilities in this world. When we see things, we are only seeing what we want to see, and not necessarily everything out there, or even that what we’re seeing is even truly there. This is what Quantum Physics is all about. You’re choosing to believe that Bush is bad, and that he should have been replaced. Kerry might not have been the man for the job, but you chose him to fulfill the need of replacement.

You chose to see things this way because somewhere deep inside you, a cord was struck, and it just makes sense to you. From there on out, everything you heard about Bush that was negative just fell right into place with your current belief. Everything you heard that was against your belief, you sought to immediately eradicate from could be true.

I’m sure a few things came along that made you think against your belief, as a few things of that nature passed my way too. In the end, you tried to find ways around those things, because as the principals of a belief go, you cannot blindly follow something successfully if you trip on a rock. This is all true for me as well, although, some of the things that Michael Moore has introduced do still make me wonder.

I think you’re misrepresenting my views and what I believe and don’t believe.  First of all.. you’re downgrading my knowledge of the facts because I go to an unbiased website which is probably as close to unbiased as you can get.. whereas you get your facts from FOX News a notoriously conservative news organization (which even I watch at times, and I often listen to Sean Hannity with my mom and it is very very far from unbiased).  I agree that yes in probably all news there is bias, but there are degrees.  Where factcheck.org is as close to unbiased as possible (once again I doubt Cheney would promote a left website) and FOX News is right.. i think you get what I’m saying.  Also I do not believe that Bush is a bad person, I just don’t agree with his platform, his actions in this war and a lot of other stuff.  You make it seem that everything negative that is said about Bush because it fits into my ideals I believe wholeheartedly.. actually the perk of reading news at factcheck is I get to read about all the lies Kerry and others have made towards Bush.  And also why I fully recognize the inaccuracies which people like Micheal Moore put forth (although overall he usually makes a good point) I didn’t take those things and say “well even though I know this I’m going to ‘go around it’ and disregard it”.. I said okay well this is the truth.  Now does this outweigh all my other feelings? Probably not, yeah If I had found loads of accurate evidence against Kerry and Bush’s views in the end matched mine then I would have voted for Bush.  In fact I didn’t decided I was definately going to vote for Kerry until about a month ago.  I thought hey, even though I don’t agree with Bush and Kerry seems to support all my views, we’ll see if there’s anything that develops that changes my mind.  I chose Kerry because of the actual issues, not because “the media” or a professor told me to.  I went by who matched up with my stance on the issues, not, Well I don’t agree with him on a, b, c and x, y, z.. but I’m going to vote for him anyway. 

Your depiction of someone closing their eyes to the world is pretty good.. but then again.. I’d probably apply that to you rather than myself.  But seeing as you truly believe in your gut that Bush would do a better job.. me telling you that you’ve been misled in certain ways is pretty futile, and you’d probably say the same to me.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
This may sound really selfish, but it isn’t my task to complete. I’m not gay. I’m not poor (yet). I’m not really being inconvenienced at all. I mean, lower tuition costs, a reduced tax or a flat tax, and a nice new car would all be nice things… but why do I deserve them? What makes my generation worthy of those things? No one has asked me to stand with them against the governments recent injustices, so why should I? And that’s just a personal thing about me, I won’t usually help unless I feel as if I am needed. Nobody seems to need me, so I’m not going to go out of my way to fight for people that are seemingly uninterested in my being there to help.

Thats like sitting around and letting the Nazi’s kill Jews just because it doesnt affect you.

[quote author=“styoshi”]i voted for Bush ..

i just think Kerry didn’t have any sort of position .. or rather .. that he took every side of every position ..

Yep. That’s why John Kerry was the candidate for ALL Americans.

http://www.richardsfault.com/sounds/JohnKerryCommercial.mp3

[quote author=“rgriffy”][quote author=“styoshi”]i voted for Bush ..

i just think Kerry didn’t have any sort of position .. or rather .. that he took every side of every position ..

Yep. That’s why John Kerry was the candidate for ALL Americans.

http://www.richardsfault.com/sounds/JohnKerryCommercial.mp3

Well welcome to the world of propaganda.. it’s extremely easy to twist a person’s words by taking tidbits of it and not really explaining the full story.  I’m not denying the fact that Kerry badly explained his views because that definately was the case.. but when presented the the full picture it’s much easier to understand his views. 

Then again I guess you guys feel that it’s better that someone consistently lies then misrepresents his position once and a while.

[quote author=“ridv3490”][quote author=“minijigga”]
This may sound really selfish, but it isn’t my task to complete. I’m not gay. I’m not poor (yet). I’m not really being inconvenienced at all. I mean, lower tuition costs, a reduced tax or a flat tax, and a nice new car would all be nice things… but why do I deserve them? What makes my generation worthy of those things? No one has asked me to stand with them against the governments recent injustices, so why should I? And that’s just a personal thing about me, I won’t usually help unless I feel as if I am needed. Nobody seems to need me, so I’m not going to go out of my way to fight for people that are seemingly uninterested in my being there to help.

Thats like sitting around and letting the Nazi’s kill Jews just because it doesnt affect you.

I hardly think the issues of gay marriage are comparable to the Holocaust. This is a Social revolution, not one that will be fought with weapons, but with words. Not one of my gay friends have asked me to participate in a rally, protest, or parade. They don’t see it as my fight either; however, if they ever asked for my support, I would surely give it to them.

i supportbush, but i think gay marrige is the dumbest idea…

It’s “racist”. It’s discriminatory.
What about in the days of segregation “blacks can’t visit people in this hospital”? Isn’t that what we’re becoming? “Gays cant visit their parteners in the hospital because they’re not legally married”. That is pathetic, people. It makes me want to… break things.

[quote author=“ORBJ”]i supportbush, but i think gay marrige is the dumbest idea…

It’s “racist”. It’s discriminatory.
What about in the days of segregation “blacks can’t visit people in this hospital”? Isn’t that what we’re becoming? “Gays cant visit their parteners in the hospital because they’re not legally married”. That is pathetic, people. It makes me want to… break things.

I believe the word your looking for is bigotry.. and yes, you’re somewhat correct about the visiting their partner’s in the hospital.. where a married person can say “Oh I’m his wife!” they’ll let you right in.. but unfortunately saying “I’m bound by civil union to this person” doesn’t quite do the same thing.  I believe you have to show some sort of confirmation of that (I’m not totally clear about that though).. yet in the event of an emergency that’s not really fair.

The thing with gay marriage is a lot of people say “I don’t hate gays.  I think they should have rights too.  They should just have civil unions”.. well I don’t think everyone who doesn’t want gay marriage hates gays.. but what I do think is that they are still discriminating against them whether they like it or not.  There are about 1,000 rights given to married couples.. and many of those rights people in a civil union do not have… so saying that through civil unions they’d have equal rights is incorrect.  Since the federal government doesn’t recognize civil unions you and your partner cannot file your taxes together.  Also other states don’t recognize your union and to dissolve the union you must be a resident in the state for a year before it is dissolved.  Which isn’t the worst idea, in fact maybe they should put the same rule for marriage so people don’t get divorced left and right.

I could be totally wrong on this point also but OK, so the opposition to gay marriage is mainly based on religious beliefs that being gay is wrong and that marriage is a religious ceremony.. therefore gay marriage ruins the sanctity of marriage.  OK, I can totally understand why a church would refuse to marry a gay couple (I don’t think it’s right but I understand).  But that isn’t the issue is it?  Gay people aren’t knocking down church doors saying “Marry me now priest, minister, etc etc” Aren’t gay people requesting to be married by the government (via Justices of the Peace)?  Now isn’t that an issue with the government not with a specific religions beliefs?  And also, Marriage was not a Christian ritual always.. it used to be something done for financial and power reasons.  The turn to Marriage as a sacrament began with St. Paul when he began to organize the church.  So stating that Marriage is purely a religious thing is not exactly true.  You can have a perfectly healthy marriage without believing in a god, following a religion or being married by a church.

I just never seem to hear a good argument against gay marriage.

PS.  I write way too much.. and have way too many opinions haha.  But I hope some of you enjoy my viewpoints or at least enjoy debating them.

[quote author=“SpiceLMF”][quote author=“minijigga”]
No, see here’s where you aren’t understanding our differences. You believe he is lying to you, whereas I do not. You think he’s acting, I don’t.

Bill Clinton was the best actor of all, and I fail to see how W could even compare to him in that respect. He just doesn’t have the talent required to act any part other than his own. You’d expect, if he was acting, that he’d falter eventually. He hasn’t. Whenever he was put under pressure during the debates, he only furthered the “dumbass hick” “act”... so I’m not sure if that glass holds any water. I doubt he’d throw all three debates just to keep us his “act”.

For me to suggest that Bush is an actor is not to say that all he is doing is an act.  Mosts politicians are actors as you pointed out Bill Clinton is.. but you fail to see this isn’t about Bill Clinton.. i’m talking about Bush here.  Bring Clinton up really does nothing to help your point because I’m not trying to assert that Bill Clinton is a better man.  I’m not suggesting that this “dumb hick” persona is an act… I’m saying that he is an actor in that he acts as if the failures of his administration are nothing.  He acts as if he is completely right in his ventures in the middle east where there have been many studies that suggest that we went into this war too quickly with false or not enough information.  You can go ahead and dispute that if you want, but it won’t really change the facts.

You said that the GOP was excellent at misleading people, when in fact, most people will tell you that the Clinton’s and Terry McCullough lead the Democratic Party. They make all the decisions regarding the party you claim failed at beating the GOP at misleading people. So, no, my pointing out Bill Clinton was very valid.

Your not agreeing with his decisions doesn’t make the decisions he made wrong, they’re only wrong in your opinion. You state it as if it were fact, when in fact, it’s only a statement of your opinion.

WE HAD DECADES OF INFORMATION. In the end I think we’ll find that whatever weapons he did have, were transported elsewhere, or were hidden. You cannot concisesively say that’s an untrue theory, so please, stop beating that dead horse.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
This may sound really selfish, but it isn’t my task to complete. I’m not gay. I’m not poor (yet). I’m not really being inconvenienced at all. I mean, lower tuition costs, a reduced tax or a flat tax, and a nice new car would all be nice things… but why do I deserve them? What makes my generation worthy of those things? No one has asked me to stand with them against the governments recent injustices, so why should I? And that’s just a personal thing about me, I won’t usually help unless I feel as if I am needed. Nobody seems to need me, so I’m not going to go out of my way to fight for people that are seemingly uninterested in my being there to help.

Well yeah that does sound really selfish.. to suggest that even though there are people in our country and this world that a suffering because it doesn’t effect you, you’ll just let it happen.  And no i’m no suggesting that we all live on an equal plane.. i’m just suggesting that the people can survive.  You have this whole duality of removing dependence on the government and that you don’t really have an interest in the well being of people when it’s not directly affecting you.. but then you say you think it should be more hands on and personal.. I don’t really get what you’re saying there.. but I could be interpreting something you said wrong.  But i’m not really sure what you’re whole point in this statement.. it kind of reminds me of Iraq, because there are plenty of people who don’t want us there yet you seem to support that effort.  Granted there are people that do want us there.. but it can be argued to be similar.

Hey, I go and volunteer at homeless shelters, don’t think I turn a blind eye to suffering.

I never said that we lived on an equal playing field, I said you wanted us to. You and your party want to bring all of America to one level, the same level. No incentive, no rewards, just one fruitless society where no matter how much you succeed, there will always be one eventual ending. Thus is the ideas of Socialism and Communism, but I fail to see how in the world that would ever work in a place such as America.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
I choose what I want to believe, and I base that off of a few things. One, I choose what I want to believe based on my inner gut, my feelings if you will. If something strikes a cord deep within me, I’m going to trust that. Two, facts can usually squash any inner feeling, but in today’s news, you can’t trust half of what you read or hear. Factcheck.org? That’s run by a college’s research department… are you sure those politically motivated youngsters have no agenda they are trying to push? How can you be sure? In many colleges throughout the country, Liberal professors who are forever pissed off about Vietnam, are pushing their agenda’s onto their students… How are you certain an agenda isn’t being pushed onto you by these people?

You seem to be putting down factcheck.org for being possibly liberal.. yet if this is what you think then why would **** Cheney promote it?  If you actually read some of the articles you’d see that they have no problem pointing out the fallicies of Kerry’s campaign equally to Bush’s.  If there is more articles geared to the fallicies of one candidate more than the other then that’s probably just because one candidate uses misleading info more than the other.  They look at voting records, unbiased studies and unravel misquotes to portray what they really mean.

It’s quite obvious why Cheney would mention it, and it’s not to endorse it. It’s like saying, “Hey! Even your people are supporting what I’m saying!” It’s basically a way to dig an elbow at your opposition.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
You’re basing your “facts” off of Factcheck.org, and I’m sure a few Liberal media sources as well. I base my “facts” off of talk radio (no, not Rush or Michael, but they are a good listen occasionally), Fox News (Hannity and Colmes (sp?), and The Factor), and the talks I have with my Dad. As well as the research I do here in there to find out if what I’m being told is true.

I have found that no matter where you go, everyone has a bias, and everyone has something they’d like you to agree on, with them. You cannot escape it. If a human being writes it, it will have these ingredients. I’m sorry, but your “facts” vs. my “facts” are basically the same in principal. You’ve found something that, inherently with that name, that you completely back 100%. I cannot say that, because I know the basics of “news reporting”. Whether you choose to accept the fact that they are “reporting” on a “story” or not, is up to you.

What it really comes down to is what you choose to believe, because as we all know, when you’re eyes are closed, there are infinite possibilities in this world. When we see things, we are only seeing what we want to see, and not necessarily everything out there, or even that what we’re seeing is even truly there. This is what Quantum Physics is all about. You’re choosing to believe that Bush is bad, and that he should have been replaced. Kerry might not have been the man for the job, but you chose him to fulfill the need of replacement.

You chose to see things this way because somewhere deep inside you, a cord was struck, and it just makes sense to you. From there on out, everything you heard about Bush that was negative just fell right into place with your current belief. Everything you heard that was against your belief, you sought to immediately eradicate from could be true.

I’m sure a few things came along that made you think against your belief, as a few things of that nature passed my way too. In the end, you tried to find ways around those things, because as the principals of a belief go, you cannot blindly follow something successfully if you trip on a rock. This is all true for me as well, although, some of the things that Michael Moore has introduced do still make me wonder.

I think you’re misrepresenting my views and what I believe and don’t believe.  First of all.. you’re downgrading my knowledge of the facts because I go to an unbiased website which is probably as close to unbiased as you can get.. whereas you get your facts from FOX News a notoriously conservative news organization (which even I watch at times, and I often listen to Sean Hannity with my mom and it is very very far from unbiased).  I agree that yes in probably all news there is bias, but there are degrees.  Where factcheck.org is as close to unbiased as possible (once again I doubt Cheney would promote a left website) and FOX News is right.. i think you get what I’m saying.  Also I do not believe that Bush is a bad person, I just don’t agree with his platform, his actions in this war and a lot of other stuff.  You make it seem that everything negative that is said about Bush because it fits into my ideals I believe wholeheartedly.. actually the perk of reading news at factcheck is I get to read about all the lies Kerry and others have made towards Bush.  And also why I fully recognize the inaccuracies which people like Micheal Moore put forth (although overall he usually makes a good point) I didn’t take those things and say “well even though I know this I’m going to ‘go around it’ and disregard it”.. I said okay well this is the truth.  Now does this outweigh all my other feelings? Probably not, yeah If I had found loads of accurate evidence against Kerry and Bush’s views in the end matched mine then I would have voted for Bush.  In fact I didn’t decided I was definately going to vote for Kerry until about a month ago.  I thought hey, even though I don’t agree with Bush and Kerry seems to support all my views, we’ll see if there’s anything that develops that changes my mind.  I chose Kerry because of the actual issues, not because “the media” or a professor told me to.  I went by who matched up with my stance on the issues, not, Well I don’t agree with him on a, b, c and x, y, z.. but I’m going to vote for him anyway. 

Your depiction of someone closing their eyes to the world is pretty good.. but then again.. I’d probably apply that to you rather than myself.  But seeing as you truly believe in your gut that Bush would do a better job.. me telling you that you’ve been misled in certain ways is pretty futile, and you’d probably say the same to me.

That first paragraph is full of opinions, and that’s fine. I just don’t agree with alot of them.

Yep :D I enjoy your opinions though :D

We’re sorry

[quote author=“minijigga”]

You said that the GOP was excellent at misleading people, when in fact, most people will tell you that the Clinton’s and Terry McCullough lead the Democratic Party. They make all the decisions regarding the party you claim failed at beating the GOP at misleading people. So, no, my pointing out Bill Clinton was very valid.

Your not agreeing with his decisions doesn’t make the decisions he made wrong, they’re only wrong in your opinion. You state it as if it were fact, when in fact, it’s only a statement of your opinion.

WE HAD DECADES OF INFORMATION. In the end I think we’ll find that whatever weapons he did have, were transported elsewhere, or were hidden. You cannot concisesively say that’s an untrue theory, so please, stop beating that dead horse.

Are you talking about Bill Clinton’s control on the party today?  Because while I do agree he has influence.. I doubt an person who isn’t even an elected official anymore is calling the shots for the party.  But whatever.. I’m not going to even argue that with you because I’m not talking about Clinton.

Maybe you’d like to look at this report: http://www.ceip.org/files/pdf/Iraq3FullText.pdf
It’s long and I admit I haven’t had the chance to read it all yet.  At the beginning there is a list of key points that this report makes.  Some points are made that while Iraq could have posed a long term threat they did not pose an immediate threat (therefore no need for preemptive war).  It is believed that Iraq lost most of their chemical weapon power in as early as 91.  Lastly it is highly unlikely that Iraq could have shipped out all the weapons that the US claimed they had without the US detecting movement.  This was conducted by the non-partisan Carnegie Endowment.. although I’m sure you’ll end up taking this for partisan also.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
Hey, I go and volunteer at homeless shelters, don’t think I turn a blind eye to suffering.

I never said that we lived on an equal playing field, I said you wanted us to. You and your party want to bring all of America to one level, the same level. No incentive, no rewards, just one fruitless society where no matter how much you succeed, there will always be one eventual ending. Thus is the ideas of Socialism and Communism, but I fail to see how in the world that would ever work in a place such as America.

I wasn’t saying that you said we were on a level playing field.. I said that I wasn’t suggesting that we should be on an equal level to avoid any being pinned as such… because I believe you accused someone else.. or someone accused someone of that.  Obviously my statement didn’t help me out.. as you accused me and “my party” (actually I’m not a registered democrat in order to avoid that whole “i only believe what my party believes crap”).

Your accusation that the Democrats want Socialism and Communism and want there to be no incentive, no capitalism is nothing but a ridiculous statement.  Does the Democratic party wish to ensure a minimum amount of security for it’s citizens? yeah some of them do.  But calling them Socialists is just a way of inciting a bad response from the public, not actually true.  You are so off in your statement it’s ridiculous.

[quote author=“minijigga”]
It’s quite obvious why Cheney would mention it, and it’s not to endorse it. It’s like saying, “Hey! Even your people are supporting what I’m saying!” It’s basically a way to dig an elbow at your opposition.

“if you go, for example, to FactCheck.com (he meant factcheck.org), an independent Web site sponsored by the University of Pennsylvania, you can get the specific details with respect to Halliburton.”

If Cheney was using this at a dig at the opposition then he wouldn’t have said an independent web site.. he would have said the “liberal.. “democrat endorsed.. partisan” I think you’re way off.  Seriously have you read the articles? Because they surely have no problem revealing the fallacies which Kerry put forth.  But then again.. I think you just want me to be wrong.. so you keep watching FOX News and telling me that I’m getting partisan news.. OK.

[quote author=“Andreux”] We’re sorry

heheh

by thw way, i know the 3rd dude on the first page.  :D

49% of us DIDN’T vote for him. 😛 More people should support this site. I mean, there’s already a lot, but it could be so wonderful 😊